Guest Host: Mark Vecchiarelli, Chief Marketing Officer, Kruve

In addition to being the CMO and one of the founders of a very unique coffee company, Mark Vecchiarelli is also the outgoing President of the American Marketing Association.

Marketing To Branding - Telephone

4.1 OCCUPYING A SPACE IN THE CONSUMER’S MIND

Transcript

Henry: Hi it’s Henry Wong of Vyoo Brand + Content and today’s guest host is Mark Veccarilli, the outgoing president of the American Marketing Association, Toronto Chapter. And one of the founders of Kruve, a very unique coffee company. Welcome Mark. Tell me more about Kruve. [READ MORE]

Mark: Sure! So, Kruve is a company that started with really some friends and family a couple years ago. We launched initially on Kickstarter as a proof of concept to see if our first product would do well and apparently, we did, because we raised substantial money breaking our goal several times over. We then used that money for manufacturing and now the product is in specialty coffee.  So, we have distributors all over the globe and we also have some world barista champion winning using our products. So you know, we witnessed much success not without its challenges of course but something I’m very proud of.

Henry: Excellent.  So, help me understand the product a little bit more because I think it’s very unique to the marketplace from what I gather.

Mark: We started out as people first, a friend’s first. And so, I think out of that we thought about different areas and interests that we could focus on; specialty coffee was one of the main ones. A couple of the folks on the team were and still are coffee aficionados and so we looked at it and we studied the various factors that impacts flavour. Of course, extraction time, coffee to water ratio and all these different things but when you boil it down; no pun intended, coffee is essentially you know water and beans and so a lot of people focus on different factors. We found that the grinds and having a consistent grind impacted the flavour the most.  Well at least it was very much overlooked. We invented a sifter. It didn’t come out of thin air. We saw that a few years back, there was a well known barista who won by sifting his coffee. We thought we should design something for the home brewer. So our products uses multiple tiers so you can get rid of the big grind and the small grinds and what’s left in the middle is that perfectly consistent grind. And then, just to add a little bit of extra oomph to it, we made the sieves interchangeable; so each tier is interchangeable so you can have more variation or less variation depending on the type of brew method or your preference.

Henry: Variety that matches the consumer taste.

Mark: Exactly. So, we created a measurement, a universal measurement which is microns to measure grind size.

Henry: Right. You know what’s interesting and having talked with you before Mark – it’s very clear in my mind what your product does. But having you try to tell the story for our audience out there who’s never heard it before, you can see the challenges in trying to capsulize it in a short way. And I think that’s certainly one of the obstacles that you might face in terms of being able to quickly let someone know what you’re all about.

Mark: Yes, 100%. So, you know not knowing what product we will come up with initially, I had expected that maybe my challenge would be cutting through the noise. So you know if we invented a new running shoe; most people know what a running shoe is.  It’s just this is what ours is, maybe it’s “ N” plus one but when you go from zero to one, you create something almost completely new. And educating the customer is just as if not more important than trying to get people to see it.

Henry: Yes.

Mark: Or hear about it.  So, one of the ways we worked around this was by using analogies.

Henry: As much as I’m hugely fascinated – because I’m a bit of a science geek to begin with, so I love everything that you’re going into about how the sifting can yield consistent grind size. But the public at large have a hard time trying to grasp it because what they’re most interested obviously is in the end benefit. “What does it mean for me?” The methodology and the approach is less of a story as opposed to the net result.We had a great pizza over lunch. We cared little bit less, I mean certainly it impacted how our enjoyment of it, that it was probably made in a wood oven and it was nicely thin. It was a result of what I got out of it rather than the process. That was the most intriguing part and the ingredients that went into it.  So, one of the things I would suggest to you is to begin focusing on what the end benefit is for your consumer, whether it’s in the trade and industrial or whether it’s the end home user.

And the exercise that I often go through with many my clients is what I refer to as a six word exercise and it’s based on a little bit of an urban myth.  Back in the day, when Ernest Hemingway used to be around. Apparently he sat in a bar and he bet someone that he could write a short story in six words and he said, “I’ll do that for a shot of Tequila.” So on his napkin he wrote Baby Shoes. Never Worn. For Sale; six words that said everything and if you think about it, it’s so packed with emotion and a lot of emotion. You fill in the blanks because you lit up the person’s imagination.  So, the same thing works so well in terms of solidifying what your brand statement is. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a line that you use out of the public but what it does to you is give you a little bit of a focus. So, by sharing those six words when someone asks “Now tell me a little bit about your company”, you’re able to cover it off in a sort of billboard headline. Then you have them intrigued. That’s the way advertising works, doesn’t it?  You see the headline. “Well that intrigues me. Now, I’m going to read a little bit more.” So, by jumping into the body copy, what you’re foregoing is that opportunity to connect with someone emotionally. If you have a line, this isn’t necessarily the words but you know, if you go along the lines of let’s say “sifting for a better tasting coffee”, then right away I know what I’m going to get; whether use those words or something else to that effect, now I’m intrigued.

Mark: Yes.  So, it’s funny. So, we had even in our press release we talked about. It makes every coffee taste better regardless of the brew method  that we applied.

Henry: You see that’s a wonderful position to have. And one of the things we talked about earlier in the kitchen was how do you set yourself apart from everybody else?  So, you exist in a category all unto yourself in many respects, there’s very few companies or I venture to say is zero other companies out there who occupy and compete with you in this space. So, already you have ventured down that territory that everybody’s really interested in, which is disruption.

We look at across the market in everything across marketing and the things we consume on a day to day life. What’s the next disruption that’s going to happen?  If you think about it, what your product does really well is disrupt the way things are done. Up till now, we just simply throw an espresso cup in or we pour water into a distillation process and you get a cup of coffee but now, you’ve interrupted, you’ve disrupted the whole flow by introducing something else to them.  I don’t want to say magically but in a lot of ways it magically enhances the coffee experience and that’s a wonderful place to be in.

Mark: But they’re still not making it themselves, they’re still not in the process and so our products you know… you can be both as well.  I drink Starbucks, I drink Tim Hortons and I drink specialty coffee

Henry: And I home brew as well.

Mark: And I home brew. So, I don’t think they need to be you know depending on how much of a coffee snob you want to be, you could say, I will never drink Starbucks or Tim Hortons or whatever but they don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

Mark: So you can appreciate both for what they’re worth but our product doesn’t necessarily take a lot of time, 30 to 60 seconds actually sifting but the big picture is if you just want the drive-through,  you don’t want to get out of your car, then you’re going to want like a Tim Hortons. If you want to go in and get someone else to make you specialty coffee or you want to sit in the cafe and you do the Starbucks thing. So, I think we’re trying to find our place in the market as well and how how many ripples out…

Henry: Where you occupy that space in the consumers’ mind.

I think you’re going down the right track because certainly there is a plethora of variety or variables that consumers can enjoy and we talked about pizza of course for lunch, I guess you and I just love pizza.  There are times when we would rather have a frozen pizza.

marketing to branding - abstract

4.2 IS YOUR MISSION STATEMENT A STORY?

Transcript

Henry: At the end of the day, I think you have a product that will give a better tasting coffee. Everything else is in support of it and it's what P&G calls the RTB: the reason is to believe. So why is it that you're able to create a better cup of coffee for me than anybody else? Well, that's because of the sieve that we used that have a way of letting a consistent grind through and through and that's a good story to get into but again, it still comes back to what do I get out of it from the beginning and what's off establish you can get to the deeper story. That's what we do a lot at Vyoo is find a way to tell our client’s stories in the most effectively possible but it always begins with an emotional hook so that you can get people interested, so they want to find out more. [READ MORE]

Mark: Right. And so for the stories, I guess it’s about all that. I guess you must have different; like you know, the same true line, the same sort of crux of the story but you might have to tweak them for different segments of audiences or how does that play out for you when you’re either helping a different organization?

Henry: What it comes back to is again, something we touched on earlier which is your mission statement. You have a set of corporate values which are reflected in your mission statement.

Mark: Right.

Henry: So, your brand narrative really needs to come out of that because it stays true to the DNA of the company, you see? So, while you may have different audiences, it still comes back to what you stand for in the very beginning.

Mark: To improve the coffee experience, we kind of turn it into more of the experiential element. To improve the coffee experience through using precision tools, beautiful design.

Henry: But see at the heart of it, it’s really a very simple statement to improve the coffee habit, the coffee experience. That in itself can live on its own very strongly as your mission statement and if you think about it, it really doesn’t matter what audience you’re appealing to. Because ultimately whether it’s the barista at the serving level to the end consumer, it’s all about that coffee experience. So, if you think of it from that point of view, the whole idea of barista going through that, the experience of actually filtering and taking the sieves and finding consistent grinds is part of the experience for them, you know?

For the consumer it may be less of that; it’s just a means at the end. For them, it’s really the coffee that they’re going to consistently get a great taste. So, this gets back to how we tell the story which is there are different ways that each of those audience come to the table and get the end benefit but ultimately, it has to come back to your mission statement which is to improve or to better the coffee experience.

Mark: Yeah, 100%. And I was going to ask us… well, what obviously you’ve done probably a gazillion different projects or products. What’s one or two that kind of stand out to you as you know, we just nailed this one, we took something from zero to hero?

Henry: Well, very similar category and I think when we first met, I handed you a can of beer and what was really effective about that product launch was that we were able to put the brand story, the story of the beer right on the can itself. Typically, when you’re at the store level, you have no opportunity to understand what it’s all about, so very few people actually tell the story that is inherent in it.

And that was Dead Elephant beer and that was inspired by PT Barnum coming to St. Thomas, Ontario. They were unloading Jumbo, the elephant who unfortunately got hit by a train. So, he ended up dying in St Thomas. There is a monument to this wonderful elephant and it inspired this beer that we came up with. But there’s a beautiful story that’s connected with it, but you remember it because of it. But there’s a number of residual benefits that come out of both the name and as a result, the beer taste as well that is created from this very simple story that helps you create recall.

Mark: That element is so intriguing to me, just the concept behind that. So, you know I have a psychology background and it’s amazing that, you know, the beer is one thing and linking it to Dead Elephants and beer… those two little thing don’t typically go together and that’s part of the magic of story I guess. If the linking goes together and just how the human mind is intrigued by that… so, eventually I guess you get the diminishing returns as well with the outcome. So, if I have a coffee company or coffee brew company or something I say, we have a beer company. My beer is the best beer; great tasting beer. My beer company is great tasting beer. Of course, all of them are going to try to push that they’re great tasting beer. The differentiating element often times is the story. And it’s intriguing that even the story… the wonderful story of PT Barnum and the circus coming to town and all that, how does that even tie into… So, that linkage is impressive as well.

Henry: It’s building a personality. So, once you establish the basic criteria of what the brand represents in terms of the product, benefits and everything beyond that, you get to the heart of the intangibles and, as you know, beer is essentially four main ingredients; you have your barley, you have your hops, you have your water and yeast and there may be some other additives but essentially, it’s just a combination about the way cake is flour, eggs and milk. So, it depends on that combination and once in a while you find a winning formula but ultimately, with beer, as with a lot of consumer products, you’re really looking to align yourself with a certain imagery or certain personality and if that speaks to me, I’m going to gravitate to it. There’s a reason why people focus or gravitate more towards Apple products versus another; let’s say or why they might still hang on to their blackberry because it says something to them and I think being able to create a story that people can connect with will ultimately set forth your audience that you‘re looking to capture.

marketing to branding - art

4.3 THINKING LONG TERM WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR BRAND

Transcript

Mark: What's the story that inspires you? Not necessarily a campaign that you've worked on but a story that you’ve seen that inspired you to either think differently, to change direction in your life ? What’s the story that had a big impact? [READ MORE]

Henry: I think it’s any one of the charities that I’ve had the privilege of working with over the years because I see a lot of very selfless people giving of their time and if you think about it, the world that we work in, in marketing, it’s very selfish in a lot of ways. We’re trying to up the bottom line. We’re trying to increase sales. We’re trying to sell more products. But if I can find a way to have impact with the work that I do in terms of positive change in the world,  that inspires me. These days, the way VYOO has been set up is really to focus on companies that will better people’s lives in some way, whether it’s the taste experience or whether it’s having a positive impact on the world.

Mark: This brings to mind another question about how does Vyoo take… when a client comes to you, when they knock on the door and they’re at point A and I need to get to Z. How do you take them through that process? What’s your ideation and views creative process to build that story out?  

Henry: A very good question. Every client who comes in through the door goes through the process, if they haven’t gone through it themselves. And that’s essentially ensuring that they have a proper brand story created.  

So, that comes really from all the background, audit, discovery that we go through but it’s a little bit more than that.  It goes to the heart of the consumer on why the product might exist in their mind. The key is to try to find the gap in the marketplace that the product or the brand cannot operate within. Once you begin defining that in terms of what the brand strategy will be and how you go to market, then you have the basis for writing a story.  So at the very least, what I do for clients is create that story for them. So, based on the insights from research or based on the interviews we do, based on talking to the market or the understanding of the consumer, we’re able to come out of this with a very clear brand story and that itself can help the client or the business gravitate to the right answer and how they approach life in general.  

Mark: And like I said that as you were speaking, I was thinking a little bit about some folks are naturals at being storytellers and for some it doesn’t come as natural.  So, if someone or a company or marketing department… can everybody get there or is there just… is there a magic?

Henry: And it doesn’t mean that you need to be the storyteller. What we obviously help you with is to tell that story,  so you end up with a script or narrative or just really those six words that I talked about earlier,that allow the organization to go forward. What I typically find when companies come in and we do this exercise around the executive group and we simply ask tell us about your company and you’ll hear if there are six different people in the room, or there are seven different people in the room, there will be seven different stories that come out of it.  So, one of the things that work well is to be able to consistently tell it because you want to have that same brand alignment, so everybody is not at cross purposes with each other. So, the key is to get to that brand narrative that allows everyone to get behind from the sales force to the customer service representatives to the CEO going out into the market and selling the company at the same time.

Mark: That’s awesome. I think it’s critical. How much would you say  in the market right now, how many people are off and how many people are on? Like percentage-wise,  with their brand stories. Do you think there’s a big gap?

Henry: Always, there’s a big gap and this is why marketing exists in many ways because each campaign, each year that a campaign runs or program runs, it’s an opportunity to reinforce the story. What typically happens is you have different agencies come in, different people coming in; different marketing people who may focus on one endeavour versus another and you lose sight of what that brand can be.  So, often as the brand strategists, what we try to do is we focus the company in terms of what they need to be saying in the marketplace because that is true to their DNA. We talked earlier about how that mission statement is really key and it’s because there’s a reason why you exist and it’s there’s a reason that these words have been employed to describe your company. So, if you think about it, any decision that you make or want to move forward with, needs to go back to those values itself.  Why did we create this company in the first place? This has nothing to do with marketing; it’s really based on the decision making. Does us going into this market represent the values we have? Does us aligning with this particular company represent the values that we set out? If it doesn’t go back to that core DNA, the answer is very obvious to you.

Mark: Yeah,  and I think the best representation of that is when the story trumps the easy decisions. We phrased another way; Apple or other companies have… the easy decision would have been to do X and they took the much harder path to stay true to their story, to stick to their brand.  Whether it’d be dropping their prices, they don’t go after bargain hunters, that’s not their demographic, that’s not their core audience. I think that’s when the true test comes, when your story; if you’ve decided on it, if you believe in it – like you mentioned the reasons to believe – if everybody is in agreement at that stage, when you get challenged is when you’ll really see the value and if you stick to it, many people will ask what’s the point having this great story? You spend a lot of time and it’s very fickle, you forget about it the next day because you want the quick buck or because you want to get into this new market, geographically things change. There’s a lot of different companies and I’m sure you’ve experienced it too.

Henry: Absolutely,  and one of the best examples is the reason why when you look in the world of retail, it’s very easy to run a sale ad. People will come to your door because they get a bargain. But will they come back when there’s no sale? Will they come back when it’s just a normal day in the retail world? If you represent something to the marketplace, to the consumer, then people will gravitate to you for that very reason. Hopefully, it won’t always mean a pricing strategy because that’s the key part of success as well but it needs to represent something in the consumers mind. And if you’re trying to own a territory, it’s better to stay within that brand strategy than within the pricing strategy because someone else could come along and say we’re going to do it cheaper than you can and then you’re forced to go lower but at what expense?

Henry: And then this is where it gets to a very hard decision in terms of how I’m going to move the company forward but if you mean something to someone there’s value in it and any sort of brand that you create can create value for you because it occupies a space in the consumer’s mind and it represents something that they can gravitate to.

Mark: Yeah, 100%.  I think you know you and I are very simpatico. One thing I’m a big fan of is playing the long game versus the short game. They might sell out certain things, just to move the business forward or to get the quick sale and lose trust and then as a result, even if they win short-term they lose the long game. But that brings to mind another challenge.

marketing to branding - authentic relationships

4.4 Using people as your media

Transcript

Mark: Are there cases where the storytelling doesn't work? Is it something that is universal and will always work or other cases where I don't need a story or a story won't fit here or a universal answer or if they're cases where it’s not the one-size-fits-all? [READ MORE]

Henry: It certainly isn’t and this is really where it gets to alignment versus agreement. You can get people to agree to your story because that’s what the boss has imposed upon us but do you really believe it? Where it doesn’t work is when you have staff or you have an entire company that doesn’t believe what’s being told because the story has been manufactured but if it’s true and sincere to the heart of why the company exists, it will always consistently be successful or you’re simply imposing it upon people; all they’re doing is really reciting the script.   

Mark: Yeah

Henry: When you have ambassadors within the company,  when you have people who really believe in what you’re doing, they can tell the story in a million different ways but at the heart of it,  it still comes back to the same story because that’s what they believe and that’s what’s been set out. So, where it doesn’t work is where you aren’t able to communicate that well within the company and get people to buy into it. You need to reflect those values.  So, the story is a result of what the company represents; it isn’t simply, or shouldn’t be, a marketing manufactured story that people can get behind.

Mark: Right. And this one is a huge one for me because I’ve worked for a company or organization that has 10,000 employees.  I’ve worked for hundred people. Currently now I have five people in our company. So, the challenge of having a story trickle down through a hundred people I imagine is very different than ten thousand is very different than five.  What are some of the ways, especially on those large scale organizations, how do you get adoption and then ambassadors within these massive organizations? Do you hold events? Do you make it integrated into every element, everything that you do,  every meeting?

Henry: I think all of those things and many companies forget that because they look at externally how they might communicate the story but they also forego what it means to the people internally that there are. They are key representatives of what the company represents.  To be able to share that story or to share ways in which that stories come to life is really crucial. It could be your Annual General Meeting. It could be internal brochure. We’ve seen it in newsletters; it’s a little bit less, maybe perhaps paid attention to but there are different ways that the founders of the company, where the heads of the company can lead that charge by being able to share the story and ways that that story has come to life. And when people see it and believe it, it reinforces what their belief system is. We’re very much humans who are continually looking for a belief system and as much as we may believe that,  let’s say religion is on its way out or it’s less popular and what it is, it’s simply been replaced by a different set of beliefs but because we as human beings are continually looking for that story or that belief to really get behind.

Mark: So storytelling for me is timeless. I mean whether you’re gathered around a fire.

Henry: “Once upon the time…” is a wonderful way to start any endeavour.

Mark: Yeah, 100%. So, that one for me is something that’s universal but maybe the vehicles and the methods and the the breadth of the ways we can tell stories nowadays, especially with the technology, is changing.  What do you see is the next? What’s around the corner for storytelling?

Henry: I think at the heart of it, it will still come down to the words that are used to convey the story. So, whether you use social media, whether you use traditional media, whether you find a way to the next wave of VR to be able to tell it, it still comes back to the core of the story.  In the beginning, you may be intrigued by the technology and we often are because we go running towards it. We gravitate to it because it seems really cool but if you can’t find a way to integrate your story in a proper way, then all it is is just really a shiny bead for people to pay attention to. There has to be some substance behind it and that’s where the story itself comes to.

Mark: So, the story needs to be the crux but I think it can be a bit more immersive as well, so you could maybe, in terms of being earlier ambassadors, you might have potentially more adoption or maybe even more pushback because it’s more in your face.  It might be more powerful emotionally if it’s more tangible and in some ways or if it’s more omnipresent. With technology now, it’s almost everywhere so you’re always looking down at your phone, you look up and there’s screens everywhere. So the story can be much more proliferating.

Henry: Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right and I think you hit on a very keyword which is submersive. We look at technology as not being the opportunity to shine those beads at you; it’s an opportunity to submerse you more in that experience.  So, in the end if that experience can help enhance my enjoyment of the brand, absolutely. But at the same time, as much as there are different coffee drinkers in the world, there are different ways that we receive messages if you think about it.  The latest movie comes out and you watch it at the Cineplex. You can go into it and put on 3D glasses or I can watch it conventionally or I can wait till it comes to my Netflix account or I can watch it on my phone. All of it is great but the more submersive it becomes, the more enjoyable I can experience what that story is all about.

Mark: Yeah, the experience becomes deeper and maybe more real too. That’s one challenge I wouldn’t mind getting your feedback on especially because a lot of the products you work with in food and beverage, it really is an experiential element, right? It speaks a little bit to the experiential marketing side of things that there’s certain products and experiences that just need to be…

Henry: Experienced first hand.

Mark: Exactly.

Henry: Yeah, I think one of the challenges unfortunately, that particularly you face is that I have no doubt that if you’re able to share this with someone one-on-one they would go, wow this is the greatest thing and now I’m looking forward to trying it and I have a feeling that you can create all sorts of converts with that. The problem is that one-to-one is a very long way of getting to your end customer or the number of people that you need to make this as successful as you want it to be.  So, how do you do that because the key is to try to get as many people on site as possible? Your emissaries are certainly one way of doing it. That first ring of influence that you can create by having people who are your influencers be able to share that with other people are really crucial because they represent multitudes of people behind them who can obviously buy into what they are saying. You won’t be able to do through VR or from video but at the same time, a video sharing experience of what someone has gone through has that opportunity to be shared thousands if not millions of times with people. So you’re reaching a broader audience by still submersing somebody in that experience but at least having me appreciate it second-hand. – to experience the same thing you are. It’s very much the way with car marketing. I see the commercial. I see someone having a wonderful life and driving the car and having purely pleasure in their road trip. Now, it makes me want to be part of that. So, if you can capture that same sense in terms of conveying it to a broad-based medium then you have a greater chance of getting people on site or at least trying it.

Mark: Yeah, that’s wonderful. What a job to have. Yeah, on a Friday, why not?  This is really nice.

Henry: Yeah.  So Mark and I are enjoying a nice bit of scotch on a Friday afternoon.

Mark: Oh yeah!

Henry: But what a job to have. That’s a perfect example of a brand ambassador who understands the story and it’s just looking to tell it and experience it through this. There might be something you want to consider as well as to have those type of tastings for people because people are continually looking for the next sort of event that they can bring people together, to simply experience something and if you think about it, it’s a wonderful way to educate people but have them go forward and tell that your story, time and time again. The challenge of course is that it’s time-consuming and you’re limited to a small group of people but if you can capture it on video or if you have opportunities to share it through your social media, through ways of out-reaching to people, then the story amplifies nicely.

Mark: From what I understand, you helped not only with these storytelling elements but with the media strategy about going to market later on and building a buzz and amplifying the message afterwards and maybe you can talk a bit about that.

Henry: It’s based on a very simple premise and quite often you hear about consultants who come in borrow your watch to tell you what the time is. But there’s no operational plan going forward. So, with Vyoo that’s very crucial to the company’s success, the client’s success is to be able to take that brand story forward. So, after we create the brand narrative and create that brand story, we look for opportunities to tell the story in the marketplace and too often, it’s largely because there are many specialists in this that their focus is on social media or their focus is on video storytelling; so that’s their answer regardless of whether you are in one market versus another. The key is really to be media neutral or media agnostic as some people referred to. The best way I did is you look at where your consumer is at, you walk through a day in their life once you have an understanding first and foremost of what that consumer is about, you see the path that they go through their day to day life. If they are a Toronto commuter, they’re going to go a certain path to get to work.  They’re going to be exposed to a certain type of media. They’re going to consume a certain type of media when they get home versus let’s say the stay-at-home mom who may have different sort of limitations with their car ride to school. Whoever that audience is, you look for where those intersection points are on the media side and that’s how you look at the opportunity to talk to them.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Henry: Really key to do the analysis and so again, this is as important whether you’re in consumer land or business-to-business. Everybody has a path that they go to on their day to day life and facing certain decisions or certain emotional triggers and to be able to understand that, you now begin to leverage the media that they can be exposed to.  What we do as well is do the analysis of each media form. If you’re trying to decide between running a Facebook ad versus a traditional ad or a Google ad, you need to see what the audience is that you’re reaching. The efficiency in reaching them and how much it’s going to cost you to reach them on a per thousand basis. So you can properly decide that this is the right medium to use.  The worse thing for you is to experiment with your own money and find out it didn’t work, so you want to be at least as risk-averse as possible by having this educated decision made for you.

Mark: Yeah, for sure. I think data that goes back to kind of data-driven decisions and having the right analysis done for you.

Henry: And the right insights from it. You can have the analysis and you can have the data but I think the challenge that many marketers face is that what does this all mean?  You can see past successes but as we know from the financial world past performance does not indicate future success in any way. You should be able to look carefully and insightfully into it.  That determines this the right way to go.  What am I actually pulling from this that can be a little bit more universal in terms of human behaviour that I can apply and extend outwards?